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IvanThaDriver
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 1340
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 Posted: Sat Nov 12, 19:23 |
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I had a look through physics.lsp :
| Code: |
("Car" ("CAR_ROOT"
InverseMass 0.000714
vecLocalInverseInertiaDiagonal 0.00083 0.00169 0.00083
-----------> MaxFFTorque 135.0
EffWheelRadius 0.315000
AntiRollBarStiffness0 30000
AntiRollBarStiffness1 20000
DangerousAcceleration 1000000.0
SubTics 1
Drive ("Drive"
) |
I was curious what does this MaxFFTorque do - it cannot be found anywhere else - at default it's set at 135.0 - so I changed it to 90.0 - wow! 
Force feedback became more definitive, precise I could say, more immersive - try this 
Then I changed it to 190.0 - loose steering, less FF forces. This finding is a VERY interesting thing to test on your own 
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I DON'T TAKE ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY DAMAGE CAUSED BY THIS INFORMATION OR BY YOUR ACTIONS TO YOUR SYSTEM / WHEEL
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Last edited by IvanThaDriver on Wed Nov 16, 11:41; edited 3 times in total
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IvanThaDriver
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 1340
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 19:40 |
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I need to say this :
UrQuattro said :
| UrQuattro wrote: |
The mistake warthog made is made the game accessable and easy to mod. Now everyone who can open a txt file (and that's everyone) is modding away.
. . .
Unfortunately, RBR is so easily moddable on a shallow level that there's way too much being done without knowing.
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I do not agree. Without this possibility of accesing files (and it includes your branch Ur4 - skins) there wouldn't be any mods for RBR. No trackmods, no new cars with changed physics, just nothing. And this includes your 2002 mod you are working on - where almost _everything_ will be changed. And you said : "there's way too much being done without knowing." - how can you know that "without knowing"?  Whole idea of learning and modding is based on experiments - first you try high setting, then low and you know. I wanna say "big respect" to everyone who contributed something to RBR  - audio modders (who certainly know what they are doing  ), particle tweakers, physics professors (Geert, Grumpa, Fullnoise, Juls - my blessings), car makers - just everyone!
Keep on rocking guys! 
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Flight
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Posts: 215
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 19:45 |
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Hi Ivan
Which folder is the physics.lsp folder in, in the RBR directory? I can't seem to find it.
Thanks,
Aly |
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Flight
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Posts: 215
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 19:47 |
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| IvanThaDriver wrote: |
I need to say this :
I do not agree. Without this possibility of accesing files (and it includes your branch Ur4 - skins) there wouldn't be any mods for RBR. No trackmods, no new cars with changed physics, just nothing. And this includes your 2002 mod you are working on - where almost _everything_ will be changed. And you said : "there's way too much being done without knowing." - how can you know that "without knowing"? Whole idea of learning and modding is based on experiments - first you try high setting, then low and you know. I wanna say "big respect" to everyone who contributed something to RBR - audio modders (who certainly know what they are doing ), particle tweakers, physics professors (Geert, Grumpa, Fullnoise, Juls - my blessings), car makers - just everyone!
Keep on rocking guys! |
Well said, Ivan. I agree.
Aly
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UrQuattro
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 2745
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 19:52 |
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I was saying stop modding the G Ivan (it's not like editing a camera position or FFB setting), it's not the solution if you want realism. Warthog that worked on a game for 3 years, unlikely have screwed up something as major as a G setting.
You are trying to open the can by punching a hole in the bottom.  And this had nothing to do with sound modding or anything else for that matter. BTW, skinning a car and editing physics are different 'disciplines'. Comparing the 2 just for the 'spirit' of argument is silly.
Agree to disagree.
@Flight - please use the edit button.
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IvanThaDriver
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 1340
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 20:39 |
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| Flight wrote: |
Hi Ivan
Which folder is the physics.lsp folder in, in the RBR directory? I can't seem to find it.
Thanks,
Aly |
It's like this - right after installation there is no "physics" directory. U need to take physics.rbz (it is a zip file!  ) and unpack it into RBR dir. You have a "physics" directory now. Remove the "read-only" parameter from all dirs/files inside it. You can now alter the files you want and the game will override "physics.rbz file" values with settings from that dir. When you are tired with changes - you can just delete whole "physics" dir and voila!
| UrQuattro wrote: |
| @Flight - please use the edit button. |
Oh, comeon, don't censor people. It's not IIIrd Reich If any such practices repeat somewhere - people - report it to me
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UrQuattro
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 2745
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 21:16 |
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| IvanThaDriver wrote: |
| UrQuattro wrote: |
| @Flight - please use the edit button. |
Oh, comeon, don't censor people. It's not IIIrd Reich If any such practices repeat somewhere - people - report it to me
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Oh, *****, don't censor people < that's censoring.
Asking them nicely not to junk up the board with multiple posts is just doing what's required for moderating a forum. Rules are rules and they are there for a reason. Asking someone nicely to follow the rules is not censoring. It's just common sense.
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Last edited by UrQuattro on Sat Nov 12, 21:26; edited 1 time in total
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szszp
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 951
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 21:23 |
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wow ivan you just made my thing stiffer..
the steering i mean errr |
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grumpa
Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 305
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 23:38 |
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HOLY SHIT CAPTAIN MARVEL !!!!!
First - Ivan - talk later - Kids and BMX.
Damn !!!!! - This is the first time this bloody game ever felt real - I changed maxFF to 80 to try it. For any of you who have never driven a real rally car - THIS IS HOW IT FEELS !!!!! I just can't get over the vast vast improvement in car response - steering/throttle/ brakes - I am at a loss for words - yeah - you bet. Enough for now - I only have 1/2 hr and gotta go to BMX. I just can't leave this thing alone now - tried it on Falstone - where I had to use handbrake - no more - just brake -turn -tail comes around -give it throttle - if the tail starts around - a little correction and ZOOM ZOOM ZOOM you're away - fantastic !
Ivan you are the resident raving manic lunatic - but - boy - did you ever find something this time !!!!
TRY IT!! |
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black f.
Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 901
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 02:08 |
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i wonder who will compensate the dammage a naive person who will eventually use this setting can cause to the steering wheel's gears.
at least for ppl who use swff: be carefull!
personally, i've moded the wheel with metal parts, but i still expect nothing good with values under 100. |
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UrQuattro
Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Posts: 2745
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 02:59 |
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Yes, one drawback of strong FFB setting will be that the wear and tear on the wheel will be magnified. So use this if you are prepared to fix/replace the wheel a bit quicker than normal.
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IvanThaDriver
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 1340
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 04:14 |
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It gives quite a bit of new range of possibilities :
...
First a bit of quote from my email advertising FFB in RBR :
...
" MaxFFTorque 135.0 ???
I didn't play with it. But it might be that it regulates maximum Force
Feedback forces in fact. I don't want to go too high with it -
actually I wouldn't like to see my wheel go dead with loud CRRRRRRRK!
But there is a good side effect of it - you see - you don't feel
FF at all with your current wheel - and that is 1/2 of RBR. If we create some
too-heavy-FFB-response physics, we can lower the sluggish effect by
this parameter I believe. Force Feedback calculations in RBR are
way better than the physics engine itself in a way - although it's
connected with it A LOT!
Even changing tire pressure in the same setup changes the wheel
resistance. When you go airborn - the wheel is loose. When you set
front rollbar stiffer - it creates bigger resistance than with weak
rollbar. Caster value - affects it the same. Going over bumps - it
just wants to blow your hands off (Prospect Ridge rules in that matter
- another bumpy tracks - Chirdonhead, Tanner and the special belove
Harwood Forest) . Increasing g - Force Feedback goes nuts. Increasing mass - heavier response. And who knows what more. You can feel ruts, you can feel when wheel goes resistant and this knowledge allows you to countersteer and fight with the car - loads of fun   "
Now we have these factors affecting FFB :
- Car setup - let's skip it for now - mainly front suspension overall responsiveness/stifness/hardness (omg, that's sweet )
- overall/spring/damper settings in wheel system setup - a matter to trial and error (I will die saying this - neverending story - BTW - have U ever seen a guy who dies with DFP in his hands? There are some who die with right hand busy - but I mean both this time )
- ConstantForceMultiplier in RichardBurnsRally.ini - it resembles "spring" setting in sys-wheel settings - but does it in an awkward way - default is -60 - weaker FFB around the wheel's center - plus values make it more hard  - but! - I finished with setting it at 0 - and then removing the line completely ( thread link ) -
"UPDATE #2 : ConstantForceMultiplier line in RichardBurnsRally.ini should be deleted or marked as comment with " ; " sign - immense help, especially while countersteering (no more fighting with wheel's center )"
- RBR FFB settings skipped (full FFB overthere) - try setting FFB "direction" overthere to "inverse" - funny stuff Drunken Japanese drifter sitting backwards to driving direction with closed eyes - yet going forward! / autocenter wheel - haven't messed with it yet.
So : ...
it opens a whole new range of possibilities - now we are enlightened - we can regulate everything (god, it's sooo good that this game is moddable to it's bones - BTW - blackf - please, have a look at this post - quote :
| reverend Geert wrote: |
The following code from the RichardBurnsRally(_SSE/_NoSSE).exe is suggesting this too:
CDriveLine::SetDriveLine(const class CSigDriveLine &) ��y �P ��p H�y ��P @�P DummyStep DummyMin DummyMax ExhaustPressure InletPressure VE00 |
If you ever find a way to affect these p-ressures - we could modify turbo curve and therefore simulate Bgroup screaming engines!  - the same about "disabling engine blow up" - pseudo-B-group engines which were simulated so far (still with no turbo - VE values for turbo engine set above 2.0 make car go choking and refusing to proceed - like a drunken frog in fog) ... had one bad habit - they went in flames right after 2 kms. So did the prototipe-bus-physics by rueda - 14000 kg vehicle needed LOTSA power - but it's tests finished after 1 km - never more... You can leave that if you have something more important to do - I'll understand
So -
This setting seems to cure in some way the steering lag problem - more tests to be conducted - including as many overall/spring/damper/constantforcemultiplier/setupstiffness/maxFFtorque combinations as possible in this short span of life ... Still - pedals are almost dead - they seem to be alive - it's only a facade. Slightest touch (no matter what filters are set) - engine wants to runaway. Depressing. And changing engine inertia is cheating, changing physics, unrealistic and still doesn't cure the problem - it's like giving a prozac to a person on the verge of commiting suicide - he seems to be happy - but only for a moment. This moment passes - and the patient passes away too. Not a healing definately - only a provisional pseudo-treatment.
I wonder what would happen if we could test this FFB thing with "digital filters" disabled by a hackish way - maybe that's the last step? I am sure that disabling those filters would cure pedals problem forever - I think I am repeating myself. Rally Masters had the same problem - digital filter thingie - undriveable with wheel / gas brake instant 100% - anyone to confirm that? ... 
Sometimes one needs to make all steps possible in some direction - not 99% - just ALL steps - 100% - then one can rest and say "I've done everything" - we are happy now - but these filters may-be the final step to enlightenment. 99% is still incomplete - maybe colourful / more happy than 50% - but still incomplete. I won't rest until I find all options. Then I will get gray hair - and a RBR successor will come out. My third eye says - 2008. Then I will head in direction of green skin and violet hair. Then I'll die. Finally
Guys!
 for everyone at BHMS! (damn, this virtual pint is sooo cheap - and what about a virtual pint for 5000 persons in one second - I will go to heaven )
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Flight
Joined: 05 Jun 2003
Posts: 215
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 07:59 |
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Thanks for the replies Ivan.
Question...Have you seen any way to increase the force feedback like this in
GT Legends? I feel that GTL and GTR both have a lack of steering feel, especially around the center, compared to RBR, GPL, LFS, and even RFactor.
And if RFactor has stronger force feedback, GTL must be able to have a value increased somewhere that can make the FF stronger. Being based on the same gmotor2 engine. I remember this lack of stronger FF going all the way back to F1 2001.
It would transform the already amazing GT Legends if this is possible.
Aly |
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IvanThaDriver
Joined: 01 Apr 2004
Posts: 1340
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 16:49 |
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| I am sorry Flight, I play only RBR now - I don't have a clue about these games |
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black f.
Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 901
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 18:46 |
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you keep mentioning "digital" filters, lags and rbr being undrivable ...
why?
if there are filters they are customisable and you already know how to disable them, if there is a lag i didn't see it yet, as about rbr being undrivable is unfair to say that.
is weird to say all those things when alot of ppl are outhere having fun with rbrnet, rbronline, champinship plugins and hotlapping ..you name it.
asking for filters disabling you are actually asking for installing a filter in a game which already prooved its performance. however, i asked several ppl about this lag thing, different wheels, different systems but response was negative and i wasn't surprised.[my only problems i've ever had with wheel was about wearing and i solved through hardware moding but this is another thing.]
sorry but all this stuff you repeat about rbr "flaws" remembers me Don Quijote, but you are riding a so dead horse.
again i don't have any lag, neither Racer_S last time i've asked, so if there is a lag is quite imposible, at least for me, to fix it.
sorry, this is enough about this matter for/from me. |
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