|
|
|
 |
| Steering wheel - output delay - problem to be solved |
  |
|
|
|
 |
 Page 1 of 2 |
Goto page 1, 2 Next |
|
|
|
|
EmVee
Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 4
|
 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 00:51 |
  |
|
When turning the wheel of my Logitech MOMO Wheel (black), there seems to be a delay of about 0.5 seconds before the command is transmitted to the screen. If you don't understand what I mean, try this: drive at very low speed (10-20km/h) and gently turn the wheel. It will take about 0.5 seconds for the car to react.
This delay can be observed best with onboard camera: the steering wheel on the screen turns 0.5 seconds AFTER I turned the wheel of my controller. At 20km/h that is no problem. But at 140km/h, approaching an "easy left" (or right), my car is 40 meters further down the road before it responds to my steering commands!!! 
This is not caused by slipping wheels or sliding since it also happens at extremely low speed and on any surface, including tarmac.
In DXTweak2 the slightest movement of my steering wheel is detected immediately. So no problem there.
In the game menu (RallyHQ/Options/Controls/Filter Setting/Steering/Axis) I have Rise Rate set to "Instant" and both Curvatures set to zero.
Does anyone else experience this delay and (hopefully) found a way to solve it?
System info: pentuim 4 (2.8GHz),512 RAM, nvidia geforce fx go5300 (64mb), logitech momo ffb steering wheel (black) |
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
grumpa
Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 305
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 01:20 |
|
|
Yup - me too. I have gotten the delay down to ,my guess,1/4 sec. I thought it was mainly because of my system,see signature. I went thru this same stuff with CMR04 - finally got it half-ass*d. Playable for sure.
For RBR I have gone to low gfx,high particle,800 x 600,monitor 100 hz,AA off,V-sync off,run batch file to kill processes + set RBR to High priority,kill AVG virus in system tray,kill Logitech Profiler(works OK without it),overclock fx5200 Core310 Mem410,I think that's all of it. Only thing left to turn off is the computer 
This brings it close to playable but the minute the tail starts around - just can't catch it. Same with brakes if locked up -release -car just does not respond until too late - foot is entirely off brake but can still hear sliding on gravel. I'm not that wonderful driving but I'm not that bad.
On the Japanese stages it is really noticeable - so tight and twisty - start tail around can't catch it.
Enough of my whining - looking at your system specs - I don't see why you would be having trouble as gross as that - but you are.
I have really nothing else that would help but at least we can suffer together. So damned close but not good enough. Extremely frustrating.
I certainly miss the steering response of CMR2.
I forgot: with all of the above I get (fraps) 24-46 33 avg fps. Plus game locks up once for sure when started in menues or stage but ALWAYS once and lately it has been crashing to desktop on occassion. |
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Paco454
Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 314
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 02:36 |
|
|
Hello. This might help. This delay you speak of is related to video. I mean you can see the delay. Inside your video control panel in windows, (I have nvidia card, sorry ATI, but it might relate to ATI guys) is a section called, "Render frames ahead". If you reduce this from 3 to 1 this delay will be shorter. For USB devices, the actual control of the joystick is made in software. There will be a delay. Older joysticks that use the midi/joystick port are less likely to suffer from any USB video delay because it's controlled via hardware which is quicker. Now you now what this feature is in your windows display properties. Bet you didn't know that one.!!
Hope this helps,
PACO454 |
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
EmVee
Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 4
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 13:11 |
|
|
Thanks for the replies!
Well, apparantly in RBR everything comes down to your video card and graphics settings. I have turned down every possible setting to the lowest of the lowest and now the sim is finally playable, but... looks horrible due to the low resolution. IMHO SCi & Warthog made a major mistake setting the standards for video cards that heigh. This will probably reflect on their selling figueres. Too bad...  |
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Gab32
Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 5
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 19, 21:39 |
|
|
Em Vee and guys,
In my understanding, this very annoying thing has NOTHING to do with graphics. Just as you said, if the DX setup works OK, your wheel works OK. Period.
If you want to test the delay, check the controller setup screen.
Let`s not obscure the issue with performance stuff (which can of course worsen it, but the root is the controller input data handling). If it had been graphics or other performance, you would not have the sharp reaction when using a joystick -which you can have and I have as well.
See the delay when you move the wheel a quick left-right, even in the setup screen. ANNOYING AS HELL.
This silly thing is called supersampling, ie the game averages a certain imput value quantity, then (after having to wait for the rolling averaging period) `smooths` the movement. It does no justice to anything, just ruins the driving completely.
The very same problem plagued the otherwise brilliant Rally Masters. Virtually unplayable with wheel. I browsed all available forums I could find no solution, people were also blaming it on gfx performance -just the same problem they all seemed to miss: the handling was perfect with joystick on the same PC! So, I had to (sadly) uninstall Rally Masters back then.
Hope RBR is not the same...
Anyone with a REAL solution? Will be greatly appreciated!
Thank you |
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
BWX
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 2719
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 05:24 |
|
|
| EmVee wrote: |
When turning the wheel of my Logitech MOMO Wheel (black), there seems to be a delay of about 0.5 seconds before the command is transmitted to the screen. If you don't understand what I mean, try this: drive at very low speed (10-20km/h) and gently turn the wheel. It will take about 0.5 seconds for the car to react.
This delay can be observed best with onboard camera: the steering wheel on the screen turns 0.5 seconds AFTER I turned the wheel of my controller. At 20km/h that is no problem. But at 140km/h, approaching an "easy left" (or right), my car is 40 meters further down the road before it responds to my steering commands!!!
This is not caused by slipping wheels or sliding since it also happens at extremely low speed and on any surface, including tarmac.
In DXTweak2 the slightest movement of my steering wheel is detected immediately. So no problem there.
In the game menu (RallyHQ/Options/Controls/Filter Setting/Steering/Axis) I have Rise Rate set to "Instant" and both Curvatures set to zero.
Does anyone else experience this delay and (hopefully) found a way to solve it?
System info: pentuim 4 (2.8GHz),512 RAM, nvidia geforce fx go5300 (64mb), logitech momo ffb steering wheel (black) |
Do you even have any idea what framerate you are getting? That video card is way to weak for a game like RBR- Why don't you list every single setting in your video card CP- because I bet anything your system (video card) is slow and you are seeing lag from that or some other bottleneck in that system.. RBR has the most accurate steering of any racing sim for a PC I have ever played. There is no lag at all on my system.. Geforce go? Is this laptop? If so, what do you expect? If not, upgrade that weak GFX card. The problem is not with RBR I can tell you that much for sure. Runs great on my system and mine isn't even a "top notch" system.
Same goes for grumpa-- man, what do you expect? Don't blame a high end game for poor performance on a low-low-low end system.
_________________
RIG- *click here* *click here* Try my RBR Raindrop mod
|
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
BWX
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 2719
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 05:27 |
|
|
| EmVee wrote: |
Thanks for the replies!
Well, apparantly in RBR everything comes down to your video card and graphics settings. I have turned down every possible setting to the lowest of the lowest and now the sim is finally playable, but... looks horrible due to the low resolution. IMHO SCi & Warthog made a major mistake setting the standards for video cards that heigh. This will probably reflect on their selling figueres. Too bad... |
Another ridiculous statement- what do you expect? It is 2004, PC games are going to only get more and more CPU/VPU intensive.. Can't blame poor performance on the game when running it on a completely budget minded gfx card. Sheeesh. 
_________________
RIG- *click here* *click here* Try my RBR Raindrop mod
|
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Gab32
Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Posts: 5
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 15:55 |
|
|
BWX,
While linking the issue to hardware/performance to a certain extent may be valid, it still does not explain why the joystick (directinput+RBR) is near perfect, and the wheel is a lagger in RBR (while perfect in directinput!).
This IS a RBR issue, at least using Logitech wheels. (I have Momo leather)
As was in case of RallyMasters, same in RBR. Good framerates on my PC, near-perfect sharp control using a joystick, and the feel of wheel reaction is like driving an overweight minibus.
On to the setup screen: you cannot even blame a poor PC. No bottleneck there, just the input values and how these values are handled by the code. Just watch/feel the joy/wheel (Logi at least) difference. Enough to make the game un-enjoyable completely.
The game seems to supersample the wheel only, very bad move Warthog...
It is beyond me why they could not simply use the dx values. |
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
grumpa
Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 305
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 22:40 |
|
|
OK now - little experiment to help verify gab32's theory.
RBR running in window in rally school stage. You can access task bar and system tray with RBR in window.
E-mail running.
Two i-explorer windows open.
One directory window open.
Task Manager running and on top.
AVG virus active but not running.
Logitech Profiler active.
No processes shutdown from startup.
Play RBR -rally school stage - RBR using min. 48 % - 98% max. CPU - mostly 90%-97% CPU - CPU Total @ 100%.
Steering lag present approx. 1/4 sec.-->> Brake delay - same -->> Accel. delay - same.
Stop in RBR rally school stage - check Task Manager - RBR still at 90%+.
Go to Control Panel -->> Printers & hardware -->> Game Controllers -->> MOMO properties -->>
Turn wheel - No Delay -->> depress brake pedal -->> No Delay -->> Depress accel. -->> No Delay.
Change RBR priority to high - a little difference in game.
Change PCI latency for gfx(agp) from 248 to 32. Slight improvement in lags I think. Gfx not hogging the bus.
I can reduce the lags by approx. half by killing everything not req'd. to run the box.
If my system is too slow - loaded up as described above - then why do the wheel and pedals give virtually instantaneous response when checked in MOMO properties ??? Is the MOMO output as seen in Properties coming through directx ??
I run RBR with absolutely no gfx issues - low,high particle,AA off,V-sync off,800x600,fraps 24-46 33 avg. fps. If I goto high or 1024x768 then I get stuttering - so I don't go there. Granted my poor old system has limitations - control response in itself is not one of them.
I had similar problems with CMR04 - but not as pronounced as RBR -but doing all the tricks managed to make it easily playable.
The CMR05 Demo seemed slightly better in this regard - response times.
I am not here to pick doo-doo with the rest of the chickens about sCi or warthog. Never did that re: Codemasters and refuse to do it with SCi. I paid for a game that is 'elegant' in it's conception but lacks a little in it's practice. I want it to be successful. But all the various issues about the game may end up in it being a marketing stillborn. I do not want that to happen. It's play difficulty is enough of a burden to bear without adding technical issues to the load.
PS: I don't recommend driving with Task Manager on top. |
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
beanbag
Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 55
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 23:32 |
|
|
| have you tried running rbr with below normal priority? |
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
grumpa
Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 305
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 00:04 |
|
|
| beanbag wrote: |
| have you tried running rbr with below normal priority? |
Ahh - no. Doesn't sound logical - but then again - what does anymore??
The RBR virtual potpourri of parameters.
Will give it a try.
Further on subject from:
From DxDiag.txt from run-->> dxdiag
***************************************
-------------------
DirectInput Devices
-------------------
Device Name: Logitech MOMO Racing USB
Attached: 1
Controller ID: 0x0
Vendor/Product ID: 0x046D, 0xCA03
FF Driver: C:\WINNT\System32\WmJoyFrc.dll
FF Driver Date: 4/14/2004 10:54:00
FF Driver Version: 4.40.0130.0000
FF Driver Size: 163840 bytes
Poll w/ Interrupt: No
Registry: OK
*************************************
Spotted this in DxDiag - the bit about [ Poll w/ interrupt: No ]
My interpretation: when the CPU gets around to looking at (polling) MOMO output - MOMO can say - no -not yet. MOMO will not allow CPU to invoke interrupt to read MOMO current output. So the lag may be proportional to the time it takes RBR to get around to polling the MOMO again or does the system poll the MOMO on a regular basis and then RBR comes looking for latest output held in some address(es) ?? Then you could have a conflict with timing - when does each go looking for MOMO output and does MOMO allow the interrupt when polled ???
Am I wrong ?? If not - then how does one go about changing it to allow interrupt ??? I haven't a bloody clue.
Is it changed inside DirectX or in Logitech ?? Is it,indeed,changeable ??
My guess would be Logitech.
I'm going to see if I can find some info on the subject.
|
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
grumpa
Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 305
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 02:09 |
|
|
| beanbag wrote: |
| have you tried running rbr with below normal priority? |
Well I'll be horn-swaggled Captain Marvel !!
Tried 'below normal' - felt much better.
Tried 'low' - even better.
I changed nothing else. Started by batch file ->process shutdown + 'priority' as usual. Gfx clock 310/410,PCI latency gfx = 32. Did use Logitech Profiler - forgot to shut it down. And left AVG virus active in system tray- forgot it too.
Previous fraps 24-46 33 avg. Now 14-45 28 avg.
That is using a harwood replay as my std. trial for fraps.
Lower frame rate but I can now pretty much put the car where I want it.
No stuttering ,nothing - perfectly OK.
Tried rally school stage twice. Previous once did 1:22.5 but most were 1:28 'ish - always busy chasing tail. Now turned 1:24.2 and 1:23.8 and was continually doing things too soon - still cursed by being conditioned for the previous lag.
A definite improvement !!
Will try again tomorrow to see if it holds - what - me paranoid??
Thank You - beanbag - I never would have gone that way.
You specify the cheek,upper or lower, and I will kiss it.
|
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
BWX
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 2719
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 02:55 |
|
|
| grumpa wrote: |
I haven't a bloody clue.
|
Yeah, well I can't argue that. LOL
But seriously-- I have a PS2 Logitech Driving force original and don't have a problem, of course I don't leave the Wingman crap running. I use the same software as you and I install the software and adjust the settings of the wheel in the control panel/ game controllers/ properties. Leave poll w/ interrupts checked and shut all that other crap off. It's funny the only people complaining of this problem are people with sub-sub-budget gfx cards...
Get a real Gfx card, a good motherboards with 1 gig of ram and then if there is still problems start pointing fingers. The control is almost instant on my machine. As close to instant as I could expect and much better than any other driving game I've ever played. There are things to complain about in RBRally, but this is not one of them with an adequate system. This game needs a fast PC to run as good. If you're on a laptop- dont' even bother writing a post to complain as the system ram and video card ram may possible the same exact thing...
_________________
RIG- *click here* *click here* Try my RBR Raindrop mod
|
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
grumpa
Joined: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 305
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 05:22 |
|
|
| BWX wrote: |
| grumpa wrote: |
I haven't a bloody clue.
|
Yeah, well I can't argue that. LOL
But seriously-- I have a PS2 Logitech Driving force original and don't have a problem, of course I don't leave the Wingman crap running. I use the same software as you and I install the software and adjust the settings of the wheel in the control panel/ game controllers/ properties. Leave poll w/ interrupts checked and shut all that other crap off. It's funny the only people complaining of this problem are people with sub-sub-budget gfx cards...
Get a real Gfx card, a good motherboards with 1 gig of ram and then if there is still problems start pointing fingers. The control is almost instant on my machine. As close to instant as I could expect and much better than any other driving game I've ever played. There are things to complain about in RBRally, but this is not one of them with an adequate system. This game needs a fast PC to run as good. If you're on a laptop- dont' even bother writing a post to complain as the system ram and video card ram may possible the same exact thing...
|
My,my - aren't you just such a precious little ray of sunshine - on every thread you decide to brighten with your witticisms. I bow to your superior intellect and wait breathlessly,and silently, for more of your heartfelt helpful responses.
***************
Once again - Thank You beanbag for providing constructive assistance.
And I would also like to thank EmVee,Paco454 and Gab32 for participating in the attempt to find a solution to a common problem. Marvelous what people can achieve with cooperation here on bhm. A very mature,helpful and knowledgeable community on this site, bhmotorsports.
I was sold on this site after contacting Ivan Spruit by e-mail to rectify the problem I was having of not being able to access the site. Ivan was kind enough to indulge me and found a solution as to the problem. He did it professionally and with friendliness and I enjoyed my contact with him.
Great staff - great members - great site !
|
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
Mazic
Joined: 30 May 2003
Posts: 317
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 06:14 |
|
|
| This may or may not apply this late in the game, but you folks are forcing Antialiasing off, right? |
| |
|
|
Back to top
|
|
|
|
|
| Page 1 of 2 |
Goto page 1, 2 Next |
|
|
|
|
|
|
ABOUT US | CONTACT | ADVERTISING | LINK US | RSS
Blackhole Motorsports Copyright © 2005. Hosted by Isolcom Interactive Ltd.
