| Author: |
29-01-2003 |
| Nice to have a real racer's prespective on racing sims. |
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| Author: |
29-01-2003 |
| Very interesting. I would really like this guy to sit down and do some time with a Papy Nascar sim. I would like to hear his views. |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| Interesting read. Some of his comments about how unrealistic certain aspects of these sims are echoed my thoughts. My biggest gripe is lack of grip. Sims just feel like they are lacking grip especially at low speed. |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| I would have great interest in a sim/real debate with some of the most respected emmbers of the sim world around the table with real racing men.Ross Brawn and Greger Huttu in conference...lol |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| Well this is a good read, and much point for thought, but I was hoping for more detail. The author keeps repeating "unrealistic" but never really elaborates. Can you please be specific? Is trail-braking properly implemented? Is cockpit jitter accurate? How about the effect of the kerbs on the suspension? I would like this better if it had more illustrated examples of what the author means by unrealistic vs realistic. |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| I was interested this article to a certain extent. But where is the specific detail or proof of why the author keeps says these games are unrealistic. I think this comes down to one man's opinion (albeit a professional racer) without any supporting facts. And the end comments to me sound slightly veiled as to being an advertisement for Nascar Heat. You could just as easily use Dale Earhardt Jr's comments about Nascar 2002 as justification of a sims accuracy. I respect the author's real world racing knowledge, but without facts or specific information on why the author finds these sim's unrealistic, it is hard to respect his opinions in this article. |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| Doesn't actually discuss any specifics about realism in sims. |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| This mod is incredible! This has to be "the" most realistic driving simulation to date...bar none! |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| Very informative article. It really makes me give thought about the sims I drive. It also makes me want to dust off my old copy of NASCAR Heat. |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| A good read but like many said it's to much non specifics. I'd like to know how much wear and tear on tyres, enginge will affect the handling compaird too diffrent "Sim's" I think he was to much of a diplomat not trying to upset anyone and i dont blame him for that. 35 - 65% So Heat is good,eh.. I bealive u if u say so, simple and real. The worst example of a driver not being thrust worthy is Colin Mc.. saying R.D is good, he forgot to mention u have to be 8 years old to like it.. No ofence 2 anyone |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| Im not sure why sim racers take things so personally. There are no insulits in any way nor did he not do what he orginally set out to do and that is to see if GTR 2002 would be; "usefull as a training aid for real life drivers". And he stated that, which everyone should be aware of, that no its not 100% realistic, but neither is any other sim that has been released. GTR 2002 might be the best game by far at the moment, but so was Indy 500 when it came out. |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| Heat blows goats. Tells ya right there he is wack! |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| Great stuff, like something I would write. |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| It surely is a very difficult task to compare sims with real life racing, but in this article the writer has done a good and respectable job! |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| Thanks to all for posting - I thought I'd try and BRIEFLY answer some of the points raised. Firstly, this was a single forum post that I tried to cover all bases with and try and avoid any confusion as to what I was saying. I have followed it up with a dozen or more posts which expand on it and answer specific questions at the GTR2002 Official forum here : https://www.simmods.com/forums/ (forum link top left). The thread is the one about "how many GTR drivers have driven real ..." The thread was also picked up in the West Racing "General" forum here : https://www.west-racing.com/forums/ the thread is the one about "give this guy a beta .." OK, here goes some specific responses : 1) Low-Speed grip - def an issue with GPL but not something I'd say about GTR. In general novice (real-life) drivers go too quick in slow speed corners and too slow in high speed corner which I think is related to the expectations of grip. 2) Nascar Sims - It's mainly a question of time and the fact that I don't think the Nascar cars are built for the sort of handling you need on a road course. I could run ovals but you are only utilising a small proportion of the handling elements of a vehicle, no real weight shifting, braking etc. it's very much a question of keeping the car balanced and letting the setup do the work, it's more to do with racing/drafting strategy. Maybe more than other forms of motorsport the Nascar driver will rely on very subtle feedback from his backside to tell him what the car is doing and whether he can push more or should push less. I will try and give it a go sometime though (i.e. N2002) 3) Specifics of unrealness - I did cover this a bit in later posts. The bottom line is, and I know this is non-specific, when I try to drive a GTR2002 car like I would a real (similar) car it does not do what I would expect. It's not that there is one specific huge thing (like I press the brake and it goes faster) the elements are much more subtle and inter-twined than that. Driving a race car at the limit all would agree is a skill that takes a lot of practice and experience - it's a VERY precise skill and not something you do by joining the dots (i.e. I'll do this, the car does this, it then does this so I need to do this). It's like walking or maybe some form of gymnastics, once you have aquired the skill you "perform" it virtaully unconcsiously. I can quite easilly (after some practice) drive the GTR cars very quickly, the more practice I have the faster I could drive them and get them on the limit pretty much all the time - I could react to slides etc. and save the car BUT I am not doing exactly the same as I am in a real car. I could live with a degree of that apart from the fact that these elements of unrealness, once overcome and exploited, seem to result in faster lap times. I am going to try and demonstrate this at some time in the future but it will be difficult. I want to get a video of as fast lap in GTR and a real life lap and try and highlight the differences. You could do this yourselves, there are lots of in-car footage on the net and fast lap vcr's of GTR are also available. A very obvious point to look for is that, in GTR the driver is on the gas constantly, being very brutal in braking and change-down and accellerating pretty much from turn-in to exit. In real life a driver is much smoother on brakes and change-down, enters the corner on a balanced throttle (so as to be using ALL traction budget for cornering) then eases on the power as he unwinds the wheel (i.e. making full use of the traction budget when required for cornering and accellerating). This is such a fundamental part of fast driving and really is the main element of the "art" of fast driving that unless a sim handles in a way that promotes this it is badly flawed as a driving training aid. I also mentioned "pitching" which IMO is overdome, mixed with braking and turning, and to a lesser extent throttle application, the car will turn in a way (sharper) than is realistic and in this way it appears to defy the laws of physics - not a HUGE effect but something specific that you might experience or see. 4) Heat advert - not at all, i've no connection with MGI - I am involved in Heat purely because it suits my purposes and mention it as a possible way of "feeling" what I am trying to put into words (i.e. the 360 compare). I've not said Heat is a better game/sim or whatver, just than when looked at with my criteria of REAL stuff vs. UNREAL stuff (handling only) it fairs better than GTR IMO. 5) Most realistic - again, it's not as broad as that, Heat has no standing starts, no weather, no ... lots of stuff, GPL has lots missing (i.e weather) - the comment was purely the realism of the handling vs. real life cars of a similar format. 6) Tire/Brake wear - I've not even looked into this and it never entered into my "calculations". 7) Heat blows goats? is this good or bad - If bad please remember that I am talking of just a few of the dozens of mods made for Heat, 3 of the best IMO (in terms of realism of handling) would be Ferrari 360 Heat, Caterham Heat and Brisca F2 Heat. Also, the soon to be released (updated) USF2000 Heat is very good, we have had over a dozen real life F2000 drivers beta testing it and bucket loads of real life data & telemetry to aid in the physics setup - it's not perfect as it taxes the Heat engine severely, but is one to try if you have Heat. Maxx |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| Malcolm, I really enjoyed your article. Jeff |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| Well done!! Articicals like this can only benifit the racing sim world and i totally agree with your comments on gpl. You can go fast but then to go faster you cheat the phisics of motor sport. But its still fun.... |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| I also felt like this was a NHEat Advertisement. I drove F2000 Cars and I think GPL and Nascar 2002 are the most accurate when it comes to Physics. In other Sims I often get the feeling u have to find out how the Programmers want you to drive, and then you have to follow there thoughts, while in Papy Sims (GPL and Nascar Series) you can use real life knowledge into the Sim, and get the expected response. |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| I am still unsure as to whether GTR is realistic or not, yet it was interesting to get a reali racer's perspective on racing sims in general. |
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| Author: |
30-01-2003 |
| Very imformative article. I look forward to here more. |
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| Author: |
31-01-2003 |
| I find it of very great value to obtain the sim-racing perspective of someone who has extensive real experience. Thank you Malcolm for taking the time and putting forth the effort to compose such a great article. |
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| Author: |
31-01-2003 |
| Interesting article. I look forward to any follow ups comparing the specifics of real world vs. sim driving. For those who are sceptical of Heat, all I can say is try it! Make sure you have one or more of the mods suggested, the latest patch and hardcore physics enabled. Put you preconceptions to one side, and enjoy.... |
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| Author: |
31-01-2003 |
| It's difficult to be convinced without specifics and I haven't played the specific mods the author mentioned but the few examples of unrealness he gave also applies in Heat mods I played. MGI was ex papy employees but Ed Martin left Papy because he was more interested in arcade side of the game than realistic simulation. And that arcadish feel is very well reflected in both Heat and Thunder 2003 physics. There's difference between "physics" and the way the car feels. If this author is referring to the way the car feels, then you can't blame it on physics but the developer who tweaked it to simulate the car. Of course GPL is very old, it simulates '67 F1's, and it's physics is not as tweakable as F12k2 or Heat so it is unfair comparison to modern day simulations. I respect the author's real life experience but many of F12002 mods and even GTR physics are tweaked by people with real life racing experience as well. I wonder if they'd agree if heat physics is more realistic. He says he can't comment on N2002 physics because he hasn't played it much but its "physics" is same as GPL. Just tweaked to feel like a stock car. |
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| Author: |
31-01-2003 |
| Very interesting points of view,we can get a fixation on our sims that are obviously not quite in the right ball park when compared with life. lets have more of the same please |
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| Author: |
01-02-2003 |
| The article is intriguing, because I've never looked at NASCAR heat mods before. I'm not sure why computer gamers think you can ever simulate racing on a computer. A physics model that can be mastered with practice is all that we can hope for, beyond that , some people are never happy. My probelm with f12002 mods is the fact that the base software is poorly written for reliability. I prefer Papyrus games because they tend to work. As for the article, I would have preferred some more specific examples, the writing was very etherial, vague and descriptive. Could have said the same with 1/2 the words. |
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| Author: |
01-02-2003 |
| Very interesting: I would love Edesons coment on the reverse question: What should you drive in real life (Caterhams, Formel Fords or other) if you enjoy GPL and have trained your instincts with that sim? |
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| Author: |
01-02-2003 |
| Excellent, balanced article. |
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| Author: |
02-02-2003 |
| DS, Nascar Racing 2002/2003 isn't just tweaked GPL physics model. It has like much more elements and calculations in it (tire model...). |
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| Author: |
02-02-2003 |
| God bless you for your enthusiasm and passion for motorsports. Motorsports are like a diamond in that there are so many brilliant facets for the enthusiast to enjoy and appreciate. You contribute so much to a facet(s), one of these being sim-racing. Motor racing becomes even more enjoyable for the driver, player or fan when these different facets are presented and experienced. It's all tied in together thus creating a deeper, more passionate and and satisfying experience wherever one is at in the world of motorsports! |
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| Author: |
03-02-2003 |
| hit the nail on the head. Imsa 25 years ago |
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| Author: |
04-02-2003 |
| Good article.Well thought of. |
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| Author: |
04-02-2003 |
| I would like to see more articles like this. We all know these games have great graphics but are 'real' are they? |
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| Author: |
05-02-2003 |
| I liked the article very much, evebn if it biased toward HEAT :). Nevertheless, a very well written esay about sim-racing. Thnk You Malcolm to invest quite a lot of time in this. However, when you talk about the unrealistic properties of GPL, you only talk in general, you did not give any example.(I.E. : Obviously the tyre and the brake model is pretty simplified in GPL, so we can use unrealistic brake bias and push the gas and the brake at the same time.) Faffy |
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| Author: |
05-02-2003 |
| Very interesting article, but the conclusion is already known: you cannot simulate car racing in every real-life aspect! You need the input of your back for feeling grip. So you can rate sims in graphical and sound matters, and also if there is enough comptetion, to get not boring soon. GTR2002 proves that, and that is all, that can be possible. |
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| Author: |
06-02-2003 |
| Good read. A bit more details of what exactly the added `unreal`/less `real` (eg GPL brakes, etc) pieces are, would add to the value. One thing I challenge, though, the tire squeal & stuff. About `simulation`, I understand `even-ness` as well with difficulty vs real life. We do not have our ass-meter working in PC sims, we gotta have audio for that (no farting, please), in replacement. Whithout something like that, the sim experience would be less real and overly sterile. |
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| Author: |
06-02-2003 |
| Just a quick further comment for all those who have asked for specifics, this is an ongoing discussion and some specifics have recentluy been aired (rea-life vs. in-game video comparison). There are a few forims debating this : here is the GTR2002 forum thread : https://www.simmods.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=27&t=8232&st=160 Maxx |
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| Author: |
08-02-2003 |
| At last, the real deal on car sims! Those that are being heralded as being the most realistic can also have too many idiosyncrasies. I'll often prefer a sim that skips some details, but sticks more to fundamental real-life vehicle dynamics. |
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| Author: |
10-04-2003 |
| Great article - as a formewr racer myself I'd be interested on the authors opinion of GP3 or GP4 |
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| Author: |
17-05-2003 |
| Very interesting and objective report. Brought up some points I had not considered before - should come in handy for the Ferrari 360 day at Thruxton I am doing next month. |
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| Author: |
03-09-2003 |
| I kept waiting for specific instances. You can't write a persuasive peice without evidence to back it up! I don't necessarily agree/disagree with the article, I just wanted it to be more fleshed out, mabye compare specific instances (particular track and car) in several sims and tell us what happens correctly, incorrectly, etc. The author basically never goes beyond saying they felt "way off". |
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| Author: |
11-12-2003 |
| Very interesting; I've never diven a real racing car but, based on ordinary ones, I've never been convinced that these sims/mods etc. come close to reality (the comment by MB about low-speed grip is very valid), but are vastly entertaining if taken in the context of a game, or maybe as a tool to learn the layout of a track (but realworld perspective must hamper this to some degree). That said, I'm intrigued by Nascar Heat (especially if I understand correctly that there is a Caterham/Brands combo available) and I'm off to find a copy). All in all, an excellent appraisal of the track racing genre. |
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| Author: |
26-08-2005 |
| an honest apraisal of sim physics modeling. Some may call it heresy to rate Heat better than GPL. However, I find it refreshing and concur with the author. |
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